2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:
If it's busted, why isn't everyone playing it and why is no one asking for it?
They have stealth to get away from you, that's the purpose of it, who knew?I usually just keep hitting the other thief, or whoever went stealth, you'll probably know where they're at even if they think they're slick. Or I'll pull and try to lock down before they think of bouncing out. It actually doesn't take a genius to do the obvious but whatever.
Here I come barging in again. Before I begin to nitpick at what you're saying and I qouted, I need to commend your earlier point about Meld and Scope. I think that is a suggestion that makes alot of sense, because as you point out, Scope is taking on part of the role one would assume Meld to have. Most issues with DE mechanics come from what Meld and Scope do ontop of other things like SA traits. However, that is also relevant for what you say here.
It seems like your experience of meeting Thieves differ quite alot from other people. I don't know why that is, but my best guess is that this differs quite wildly between EU and NA servers as well as between tiers and servers themselves. Not knowing where you play, what I've seen EU is more governed by potential and NA more by behaviour. NA's solo-ish roaming scene at least used to be more healthy as a result but it was also a case of what was being done trumphed what could be done and that's not how theory works. Possibly recent EU transfers to NA has changed that a bit (and vice versa) making EU behaviours more and more common. That may not be good for health, but is for theory. Either way, me and alot of people here see the Thief as the most populated small-scale class. It surprises me when I see people complain about Rangers for example since I tend to see them less and I tend to see them die more to larger groups ungentlemanly chasing them down. They may be quick as roamers, but not quick enough as Thieves to escape so much more.
Another thing I've brought up before is that popular Thief builds gain so much from stealth that there is little variation in how they are setup. That is a likely reason why there is little discussion about Thief builds. There seems to be a shared understanding within the class that power is powerful enough, condi is cheesy and hybrid isn't worth it (mainly because few people play it in role-coordinated groups; Thief is actually a class that can gain alot from eg., Celestial stats but few people use the class for the purposes where that can be useful and as such never use it where that can be useful - it's a bit of an absurd tangent, but bare with me).
That leads into that last part of the qoute. The issue has never been that Thieves have stealth to get away. It isn't even an issue about whether Thieves should ambush. Further more, it's not about how well an idea of Meld for long stealths fits WvW or the repeated concerns about "perma stealth". That can be questioned, but itsn't really a big problem. It is rather the totals of engagement and disengagement opportunities afforded to the class through how much they gain from their stealth, its interactions and the other unique class mechanics.
Meld and Scope serves one example of that where the current mechanics can be applied to your example. You can Meld to beat the reveals, you can Rifle-port for initative, stealth with dodge and attack from stealth to avoid no-scope damage, reveals and the need to use initiative or utilities on things that come your way. There are similar interactions between stealths and steals, stealths and utility ports or stealths, initative and traits or other utilities.
Add some techniques to that like port-stow interactions and patient or relatively good Thieves gain so much control over fights and variables in numbers (5v1 relative 1v5, if we keep it small, etc.) that for the purposes of solo-ish roaming (distinct from solo-ish duelling or role-coordinated groups of havoc, small-group roaming or small-group duels) that it lead to some very strong options to leverage own fun at the expense of others' fun (ie., balance issues).
Take the Thief out of that environment and it is far less of a problem, but that environment is rather important for the broad sub-content model of WvW and I think when alot of people complain about "perma stealth" it is more that they have in mind, they just don't know how to articulate it, either that, or they just complain about getting killed like many other players do about other classes, but then they don't have me agreeing with them. I am mainly concerned with the 1vX to Xv1 balance of Thieves in the larger roaming environment (distinct from sPvP, duels and any role-based group play). It isn't even for my own benefit, because as I've stated before, I may like "roaming" and I may like "small" but in that I prefer role-based play. Most balance issues below that tend to send players into my pools. This is also why I've kept quiet about Thieves for a while now, since I've felt that most Thieves do not necessarily disagree or talk to me about that, discussions tend to circle around it and then I don't have much to add.
Hurr durr TLDR. I couldn't pass on this opportunity though, because I think it framed the discussion very well.
It frames the discussion because I think no-scope, anticipate, wait and reveal to some degree are fair ways to deal with stealth (and stealth as a whole in GW2 is not broken as some claim). However, that is based on those things being reasonably effective and in many cases with the Thief they are not. Decent enough Thieves all combine their stealth, mobility and what they gain from being able to compound so much of their builds into that inforced loop. Synergy is good, too much synergy is a balance issue and leads to simplistic dedication no one asks or talks about.
Like I've said before, I think the class could stand to gain from losing some things in deep areas and gain them in broad areas, a nudge towards things that work in less common uses but could use a nudge for attention. Thieves are not bad at larger scale, for example, but they are definitely not popular.
Edited by subversiontwo.7501
